Wikipédia-vita:Konzultáció a vitalapokról és a közösségi kommunikációról

Talk pages consultation - it is time to close the Phase 1!

Hello

Sorry to use English. Segíts lefordítani a saját nyelvedre. Thank you.

Community summaries are due by Saturday, April 6, 2019. It is now really time to close the conversations. We really thank everyone who has participated. Every opinion matters.

What is a community summary?

The goal of a community summary is to wrap up the discussions and provide a summary of what your participants said. That way, other communities can learn about your community's needs, concerns, and ideas. We have seen very different feedback on different wikis, and it is time to discover what everyone thinks!

Please include in that summary:

• every perspective or idea your community had, and
• how frequent each idea was; for example,
  • how many users shared a given opinion
  • whether an idea was more common among different types of contributors (newcomers, beginners, experienced editors...)

You can add as much detail as you want in that summary.

Please post it on the page for community summaries, using the most international English you have.

Can't the Wikimedia Foundation read all the feedback?

We are trying, but we really need your help. For most conversations, we have to use machine translation, which has limitations. This can help us find the most common needs or global ideas. Machine translation is useful, but it does not tell us how people are feeling or what makes your community unique.

Your community summary should be built from your community's perspective, experience and culture. You might also know of relevant discussions in other places, which we did not find (for example, perhaps someone left a note on your user talk page – it is okay to include that!). Your summary is extremely important to us.

What are the next steps?

Phase 2 will happen in April. We will analyze the individual feedback, your community summary, and some user testing. We hope to have a clear view of everyone's ideas and needs at the end of April.

Some ideas generated during phase 1 may be mutually exclusive. Some ideas might work better for some purposes or some kinds of users. During Phase 2, we'll all talk about which problems are more urgent, which projects are most closely aligned with the overall needs and goals of the movement, and which ideas we should focus on first.

Discussions about these ideas may be shaped and be moderated by the Wikimedia Foundation, guided by our decision criteria, listed on the project page.

How can I help now?

• Please provide the summary. :)
• While we study the feedback, we may ask you for more information.
• We will need your help for Phase 2 as well, probably to translate or publicize some future materials we may have.

If you have any questions, please ask.

Thank you again for your help, Trizek (WMF) ^vita 2019. április 5., 17:24 (CEST)

@Samat:? Apród ^vita 2019. április 5., 17:48 (CEST)

Összeírtam itt néhány itt és máshol felvetett ötletet, problémát és kérést. Samat ^{üzenetrögzítő} 2019. április 10., 22:54 (CEST)

Encouraging more users

Right now, 74 people have opted in (including me). Would it be appropriate to encourage more editors, and perhaps some less-experienced people, to try it out? I'm specifically wondering whether it might make things easier for the Wikipédia:Kocsmafal (kezdőknek). At the English Wikipedia's Teahouse, new people often have trouble figuring out how to sign their replies. Whatamidoing (WMF) ^vita 2020. április 16., 21:40 (CEST)

Szerkesztő:Tgr, Szerkesztő:Wikizoli, Szerkesztő:Misibacsi, Szerkesztő:Tacsipacsi, Szerkesztő:Palotabarát, Szerkesztő:Burumbátor, Szerkesztő:RuIsZa: I know you have all been active at the page for beginners, and some of you have tried out the new Discussion Tools beta feature, but I don't see any edits with the new Reply tool at Wikipédia:Kocsmafal (kezdőknek). Do you think it would be helpful there? Would you recommend it? Whatamidoing (WMF) ^vita 2020. április 20., 20:42 (CEST)

@Whatamidoing (WMF): yeah, it's better than nothing, I think. I would still prefer Flow, but oh well.

FWIW all the sections starting with "Kérdés a(z)" come from GrowthExperiments (which has its own comment box and autosiging), and the ones starting with "Mentorkeresés" are coming from a template with text preload. Can we send people right into the new interface directly via an edit link? Does it support opening new sections at all? --Tgr^vita 2020. április 20., 22:47 (CEST)

Also, it's important to make sure people are pinged, which the tool doesn't support. I filed T250914 about that. --Tgr^vita 2020. április 22., 17:02 (CEST)

@Tgr: On my side I do not support automated pinging for each reply, it just increases the noise level. Today we are able to ping someone in the text and in the edit summary if we want to. If we are able to do the same with the new tool, it must be enough, otherwise it’s up to the watchlist. Pasztilla 2020. április 22., 17:09 (CEST)

Tgr, they're looking at a non-automatic pinging system. I think the first step will be a quick, simple search, similar to what happens when I type @Tgr on Phabricator. They've talked about always pinging, but it could be annoying. Perhaps a middle ground would be a button to add the ping? (Then you would only use the search if you want to ping a third person.) Whatamidoing (WMF) ^vita 2020. április 23., 04:35 (CEST)

(I see that I still need to re-train my fingers to click the 'Reply' button instead of the 'Edit source' button...) Whatamidoing (WMF) ^vita 2020. április 23., 04:36 (CEST)

@Whatamidoing (WMF): yeah the new @-autocompletion UX is pretty cool. I was more thinking of making sure the interface reminds people that they need to ping (or, if they are new, explains the relevance). A button would be a good start, also some kind of warning shown above/below the edit area (maybe depending on your edit count, or only once). Tgr^vita 2020. április 23., 10:57 (CEST)

Tgr, I'm looking forward to the @-mention, too. Unfortunately, last week's deployment train derailed, so the code for testing that isn't here yet per https://versions.toolforge.org Whatamidoing (WMF) ^vita 2020. május 18., 21:11 (CEST)

Last call

Is version 2.0 good enough? The devs ask us whether the visual mode is satisfactory. I think it is satisfactory, but your opinion is more important. We have this week to decide. If it is good, then next Monday (15 June) they will put it in the regular wikitech:deployment train, and "version 2.0" will be turned on next Thursday (18 June) for everyone who already has the Beta Feature enabled.

You can test it on this page with this link: https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipédia-vita:Konzultáció_a_vitalapokról_és_a_közösségi_kommunikációról?dtvisual=1 You might need to switch to the visual mode to see what's new.

So: Are there any significant problems? Is there anything you need, before the visual mode is available to you all the time, without having to type ?dtvisual=1 each time? (Please ping me, or "@ me" in the new visual mode.) Whatamidoing (WMF) ^vita 2020. június 9., 01:28 (CEST)

@Samat, @Tacsipacsi, @Pasztilla: What do you think? Whatamidoing (WMF) ^vita 2020. június 9., 02:15 (CEST)

@Whatamidoing (WMF): No release-critical bugs so far, although having to modify the URL makes me test a lot less than I would when it’s released as a beta feature. One bug I noticed was that when I started writing this comment, I typed ~~~~ in source mode, and after switching to visual mode, it was nowiki’d. (I like to write my signature prefixed with U+2013 U+00A0, so I manually type it in whole.) It’s a little annoying, but I don’t think it will effect many people. One more thing that would be nice is to support the {{válasz}}^(?) template that I used in this comment when writing @-mentions. It’s less verbose and we’re more used to it than having the whole link syntax in comment wikitext. (Flow has a {{FlowMention}} template with a bit different syntax and no automatic colon at the end, but {{válasz}}^(?) is far more used, so I prefer that.) —Tacsipacsi ^vita 2020. június 11., 15:40 (CEST)

I'm not sure that the hassle of installing and maintaining the templates on hundreds of wikis is worth the benefit. They might create a parser function (but that means having English everywhere, which is another problem). If we had mw:Global templates, I'd probably feel differently about the templates. Whatamidoing (WMF) ^vita 2020. június 12., 21:04 (CEST)

@Whatamidoing (WMF) I imagine it could be done the same way VE/Citoid handles citation templates. Tgr^vita 2020. június 13., 18:09 (CEST)

Tgr, the citation templates are manually imported and hand-configured on every wiki, almost always by staff. I would not want to volunteer the Editing team to install a ping template at all the active wikis, especially since a plain wikitext link produces the same effect. Whatamidoing (WMF) ^vita 2020. június 13., 23:38 (CEST)

@Whatamidoing (WMF): I haven't had time for advanced testing, but it worked ok when I tried. If nothing comes to the surface until then, let's say it is fine for the beta feature ;) Samat ^{üzenetrögzítő} 2020. június 11., 22:40 (CEST)

One thing I found, that if I write a text with code at the end, I could not step out from it.

I realized later, that the new line (enter) breaks this syntax, but it is annoying if you don't find it out. Samat ^{üzenetrögzítő} 2020. június 11., 22:46 (CEST)

Hello, Samat. I use code formatting a lot myself. The same key stroke that puts you in will get you out. You can also use the character formatting menu (the A) to turn it off. Although it's possible, and you found a workaround, it's not as easy as it could be. I've filed phab:T255304 to see whether they can make it easier. Whatamidoing (WMF) ^vita 2020. június 12., 21:14 (CEST)

@Whatamidoing (WMF) my main beef with code formatting is that Ctrl+Shift+6 is a terrible mnemonic. (And <nowiki><code> is terrible markup to type by hand.) I don't have any great idea (language-dependent initial-based mnemonics have their own problems, as do special characters which are typed differently on different keyboards) but it's definitely a pain point, in the wikitext editor, in VE, in Flow, and now in DiscussionTools as well. Tgr^vita 2020. június 13., 18:21 (CEST)

I assume that most people use the character formatting menu instead of the keyboard shortcut. (See phab:T245939 for the most recent request for the nowiki part.) Whatamidoing (WMF) ^vita 2020. június 13., 23:42 (CEST)

An other thing, that the floating pop-up button of the Growth experiments' help panel often covers the Reply button, and it happened several times that I clicked on it instead of the Reply button. But this is more a problem which could be solved at the Growth experiments, and both are new features only for opt-in contributors, therefore it does not effect too many editors and I expect the issue will be solved in the future. Samat ^{üzenetrögzítő} 2020. június 11., 22:52 (CEST)

I've not opted into that, so I don't see the Growth panel. Is this related to phab:T219966 but not the same? User:Trizek (WMF), could you click the link in my first comment in this section, and see if the Growth experiment interferes? Whatamidoing (WMF) ^vita 2020. június 12., 21:09 (CEST)

Yes, the mentioned problem is related and very similar. I uploaded two screenshots here to show how it looks with English and with Hungarian surface. Samat ^{üzenetrögzítő} 2020. június 13., 11:01 (CEST)

The help panel is not opt-in for new contributors. But you can just scroll the page, so I don't think this is much of an issue in practice. Also, new contributors are unlikely to have DiscussionTools enabled (which is a shame, IMO - the tool would be a big help to them even as it is now). Tgr^vita 2020. június 13., 18:27 (CEST)

Samat, those screenshots look like a very big problem. Assuming editors here like it as much as I do, then at some point, it is likely to be enabled for all editors. At that point, this will be a significant problem for the newer editors. Maybe it doesn't need to be fixed today, but it needs to be fixed. I've added a link to phab:T219966 to show how that problem is affecting this tool. Whatamidoing (WMF) ^vita 2020. június 13., 23:47 (CEST)

Tgr is right, that the Help panel is not an opt-in tool for newcomers, but they very likely don't use the DiscussionTools yet. It is true, that I can easily move up or down the button of the Help panel by scrolling, but I don't want to scroll (:)) and if I answer the lowest message on a page, they completely covers each others by default (without repositioning, scrolling). I completely agree with your conclusion (not urgent, but should be solved). Samat ^{üzenetrögzítő} 2020. június 14., 11:42 (CEST)

@Whatamidoing (WMF) IMO it is a clear improvement. There are some things I miss, but that's not a reason to delay rolling out existing improvements:

• It would be nice to get a reminder to ping the person who you are replying to (mainly for the benefit of new users, who probably expect that to happen automatically, and the placeholder text further reinforces that impression).
• The tool does not work on transcluded subpages (see e.g. Wikipédia:Tudakozó). I think that would be a good selling point for experienced users. At the very least, the error message could be clearer.
• I have to switch to source mode to enter templates (which are not used in a typical discussion, but used a lot in deletion discussions for example). Source mode might be the easier way to enter simple templates anyway, but a keyboard shortcut for switching would be nice. (Extra credit if the cursor position can be preserved.)
• As others have noted, the wikitext generated by the @-tool is a bit awkward.

Tgr^vita 2020. június 14., 11:03 (CEST)

Hmm. I was able to insert templates by typing {{ last time I tried it (it worked the same as in VisualEditor), but now it does nothing. Looks like a regression. Tacsipacsi ^vita 2020. június 14., 11:22 (CEST)

The template syntax typed in Visual mode will be between nowiki tags in the wikitext with the current setup. Samat ^{üzenetrögzítő} 2020. június 14., 11:45 (CEST)

But this was not the case a few days ago: typing {{ brought up the same template insertion window as the one used in VE. Which is gone for some reason. —Tacsipacsi ^vita 2020. június 14., 14:15 (CEST)

I understood, just wanted to note how it works now :) Samat ^{üzenetrögzítő} 2020. június 14., 14:55 (CEST)

They've turned off that keyboard shortcut, because it works okay for simple, single-line templates and breaks for multi-line block-formatted templates (like an infobox). It's likely to come back eventually (after the planned technical RFC about multi-line comments), but it's off for now. Whatamidoing (WMF) ^vita 2020. június 15., 20:32 (CEST)

I'll number my replies:

1. How many pings do you want to get every day? In theory, pings could be automatic, but volunteer-me is not sure that I want to be pinged by every person who comments (immediately) after me in every discussion. (Work-me wants all the pings.) One idea was to add a "Ping Tgr" check box.
2. It's meant to work on transcluded subpages. It appears to work on w:fr:Wikipédia:Le Bistro Maybe there is a difference in how the pages are set up?
3. This should be back once MediaWiki can handle multi-line comments more gracefully.

Whatamidoing (WMF) ^vita 2020. június 15., 20:39 (CEST)

@Whatamidoing (WMF)

1. Yeah, a checkbox, or an insertion tool like Translate has for message parameters. Experienced editors know when to ping, anyway; it would just make it marginally more convenient for them. For new editors, erring on the side of making them ping is fine, IMO.
2. I just jumped to the conclusion assumed it's due to being transcluded; it might be completely unrelated. Would be nice to know the reason though, that's our reference desk, so it's one of the pages which get a lot of traffic from beginners.

Plus one: I somehow missed it until now that the formatting / pinging tools are visual only (unlike e.g. in Flow). I understand that making them work in the source editing interface is not trivial and there might be any number of more important features, I just wanted to say it would be nice to have. Tgr^vita 2020. június 15., 22:02 (CEST)

I totally agree with you on the last point. Even if all I get is the shortcuts for code tags and making a link (i.e., searching for the correct spelling of the page), I really want this featureless empty wikitext box to save me some trouble. It's not a huge amount of work, but it's not the team's current priority.

The Reply tool doesn't like having unclosed divs or other boxes around whole pages, which means that I can't use it at, say, w:en:User talk:Iridescent's talk page. Transclusion is another potential source of difficulties. I'm not sure what else might be the cause. Whatamidoing (WMF) ^vita 2020. június 15., 22:15 (CEST)

@Whatamidoing (WMF): Probably the fact that Wikipédia:Tudakozó/Pár nappal ezelőtti kérdések uses a parser function (#ifexist)? I debugged it a bit, and it successfully finds out that it’s from Wikipédia:Tudakozó/Fejrész, which transcludes Wikipédia:Tudakozó/Pár nappal ezelőtti kérdések – and it gets lost at that point. A code comment says it doesn’t bother with parser functions. Probably if the archive bot could run right at midnight instead of 2 AM, we could get rid of this parser function. (It’s not trivial, as the archive bot is a cron job running on WMF servers, which means it’s timing is in UTC, so it can’t easily honor daylight saving time.) —Tacsipacsi ^vita 2020. június 16., 18:57 (CEST)